9th Renewal Convention on Adult Children, Recovery, & Trauma
Las Vegas , NV � February 23-26, 2005
Second Chances: Back From Betrayal
Ted Klontz, MAT, MAC, CSATIII, Ph.D. Candidate
Margie Zugich, MAT, CETII
(ACOA25-014-Klontz-Zugich)
ZUGICH: Well, welcome, everyone. My name is Margie Zugich. I'm co-director of Onsite Workshops in Cumberland Furnace, Tennessee . The title of our breakout session is, �Second Chances: Back From Betrayal.� We're here to talk about betrayal in relationships, working with that, and trying to heal from that.
KLONTZ: My name's Ted Klontz. Margie and I are married, and did so in the mid-�80s. You'll notice our names are different; that's because I chose not to change mine, which at the time was a very advanced thing. <Laughter> She calls it stubbornness; I call it being ad�
ZUGICH: � I'd say more stubborn than advanced, but� <Laughter>
KLONTZ: We'll be doing a lot of things in the hour-and-a-half we have together. Maybe the most important thing is we have a couple who's been willing to, and will be willing to share their story with you. Their story is now in a book form, and they will be around all weekend.
So if you don't have a chance to get the information you'd like to have, they have very graciously agreed to be a part of this. It's an incredible thing to have a couple who are willing to be a part in public, and the only attempt is to help other people realize that things can be different.
We're going to be talking a little bit about how we define betrayal, what we believe the causes of it are, what we believe a model for recovery is. This is not the only model, but it's a model that works; and Burt and Suzy, who will be joining you later, would be what I would call our perfect student examples�they did exactly what we asked them to do. If you are a clinician, I don't know how many people are willing to do that�that's very rare, and it takes an extraordinary amount of trust.
I remember that experience with myself when the therapist I went to see�because I wanted to make sure that the relationship with my kids and myself was the best it could ever be because their mother and I didn't live together anymore�she said, �I can't help you with that. The only person I can help you have in terms of a relationship with is the one you have with yourself." At that moment I felt busted because I knew if you tell me what to do to make a relationship better, I can do that; but the one with myself...
She said, �If you'll trust me, if you take care of that relationship, the rest of them will take care of themselves." So I know a little bit of how much trust that was because it was totally the antithesis of what I believed to be true. Some of the things that we believe about our model are very difficult to imagine; they're even more difficult to do, and it's almost impossible to follow through on, but we have the perfect couple here in terms of their willingness to do those things, and gratefully, things have turned out well for them.
So we'll introduce them to you a little bit later, but right now I'd like to have them stand up and say hello. Again, they'll be around and they'll be hanging out near our booth. They're very gracious with their time, and they'll be happy to talk with you�at any level, whether a personal level or a clinician level or whatever.
ZUGICH: This issue of betrayal in relationships is a huge, huge issue. How many of you, either professionally or personally, have dealt with betrayal of some kind in relationships�put your hands up? Is there anybody that hasn't? Well, the statistics, as close as we can figure, say that one in 2.7 married couples have dealt with some kind of infidelity in their relationship�that's one in 2.7 couples. That's 20 million people, and that's just married couples, not other couples, and that's just infidelity, and there are all kinds of betrayal. So those are some staggering, staggering statistics.
Those of you that are clinicians know that a good number of the couples that walk in your office are struggling with some kind of betrayal issue. We have worked with about 2,300 couples in our workshops over the last 13 years. They come to us for a four-and-a-half-day workshop, and it's kind of in a retreat setting.
We estimate that probably�we were talking about this and it's just a rough estimate�I would say about 40 percent are dealing with some kind of betrayal issue. Ted was saying, �I think it's more like 60 or 70,� because once they get there and things start to come out in the relationship work, we find so many more betrayals.
I'd like you for just a minute to think about what you think constitutes a betrayal. If you could say in a sentence what constitutes a betrayal, chunk it now; just think about that for a minute. Anybody want to volunteer what they've come up with? Yes?
<Repeats back various audience responses.> Dishonesty. Distrust. Disrespect. This is great�not just one sentence; one word. Deceiving yourself. Who else? Manipulation. Breaking of a trust. Broken promises.
So, we get lots of different answers; they're all kind of in the same ball park, and they all seem to be revolving around some kind of break in trust, or dishonesty.
We know that when couples come to us in our workshops, we know that there are as many ways to define betrayal as there are people who are feeling it. So what we do as clinicians�and it's a challenge to us�is that we try to help couples really focus on the fact that if one of the people in the relationship feels like there's been a betrayal, even if the other person does not agree, then there's an issue to be dealt with. So the challenge to clinicians is to refocus the couple from arguing about whether there's been a betrayal or not and really focus on what the real issues are.
KLONTZ: Could you tell me what kind of relationships carry the potential for betrayal?
AUDIENCE: All of them.
KLONTZ: All of them. So, if we didn't have relationships, there would be no betrayal. That's the easy solution, but it's not the most popular one. We were talking about birth control. At one particular point in time, the doctor said, �Well, there's only one true way�it's called abstinence�but it's not a very popular form of birth control. It's sort of the same thing around relationships.
I believe, and we believe, that every relationship has the seeds in it for a betrayal act or a betrayal process. I like metaphors, so imagine this bag of sterilized soil that you'd buy from a garden store. Now, sterilized would mean it's a perfect bag�and think about your relationship: �Ours is the perfect one.� But a master gardener knows that even though this appears to be pure and it's as pure as it can be, the potential for weeds are there no matter what, whether they're actually in the bag�because if you read very carefully, it doesn't say, �totally sterilized�; it's sterilized within the limits of what sterilization means. It's sort of like �clean food��no more than three pieces of rat hair in your cereal. <Laughter>
So the potential is there, and the master gardener knows this, and they anticipate this and they plan for it. So they plant their garden, and they can begin to identify what belongs where, and they begin to do the weeding part.
How do they know that? Well, they've been taught that no matter what, no matter how perfect it is, no matter what the situation is, it has the potential for bad things to happen to that garden; and if we don't pay attention to it, then the weeds get bigger, the flowers get choked up, and there's a disaster.
What we believe, we believe that there are certain couples who are very prone to having this happen, and those were the ones who were not given the master gardening skills. You become a master gardener of relationships by growing up in one. You watch what Mom and Dad or the significant others do to take out the weeds as they begin to appear. You see the techniques; you begin to understand what weeds are and weeds aren't. You don't know that you're learning this, but you learn this by osmosis.
The people that we work with typically do not come from environments that give them any of that information. So they go into relationships with this starry-eyed thing, which, thank goodness, is there. If we understood the full implications of what we were doing when we said, �I do,� we would say, �I don't,� or, �Maybe I will and we'll see how it works out." So there's some significant bliss; and if the gardener thought about all the weeding they were going to have to do, they'd never plant a garden.
The couples that run into trouble are the ones who think, �Well, it wouldn't happen to me because we really love each other and we promise and we do this and that..." So they just don't pay any attention, and weeds begin to sprout up; and they may notice something, but as in the relationships that we're going to be talking about, they just choose to ignore them. They would certainly never ask anybody for help because what kind of help do you need because things are starting to grow and it looks good.
So the kind of relationships that breed, if you will, the potential of actually causing these weeds to become something can literally choke the life out of the relationship, are the people who can't see them coming. So our premise is that people who walk into a situation where there's been some kind of betrayal essentially are products of their historic environment.
Like Suzy and Burt would tell you, that no longer do they ignore the little things that come up that have the potential to destroy their relationship. They're very cognizant of that; every day they take a look at this thing and do what they have to do to keep it clean.
So Margie's going to talk to you a little bit about the kind of families that produce the kind of people who grow up to be in relationships that are prone to become involved in betrayals.
ZUGICH: I want to demonstrate what Ted is talking about. We'll take this black veil; and if this black veil represents disease, such as alcoholism, or a dysfunction, and as children growing up, if this is our experience with the people that we love, with our parents, with our families, and we live in this environment, and of course, as kids, we want to make this connection with the people we love because they're who we depend on; but we can't make that connection because there's disease or dysfunction going on. So we're constantly bumping up against this veil that we can hardly feel and hardly see. If you'll notice behind the veil, you can see Ted but he's distorted.
KLONTZ: Even without the veil, I'm distorted. <Laughter>
ZUGICH: You said it; I didn't. It's also darker. You can't see his facial expression and you can't read his feelings, so there's a barrier here. For children growing up in this kind of a household, this becomes reality. However, what makes it even more confusing for children growing up in disease or dysfunction is that sometimes you see them and sometimes you don't. Sometimes the disease is active and it's scary and it's terrible; and sometimes promises are kept, nurturing happens, parenting is appropriate, and sometimes it's not. The crazy-maker for these children is you never know what you're going to get�you never know what you're going to get.
KLONTZ: The other thing is, you think you're in control of this. This is where kids begin, �If I only did this, then this appears to happen,� so they begin to be trained or conditioned, if you will. They really have no ability; this is not within their control, but they don't know that.
ZUGICH: So they pour the booze down the drain; they try to be the very best kid they can be; they try to protect Mommy from Daddy. That's really tugging at this veil trying to get it down, but they're not in control. So this becomes their reality�I just take that on, and I'll just take it right with me because this is what's real to me.
So I become distorted from myself�I can't see my own truth, I can't feel my own truth; I can't feel my own truth. I'm going to pick a partner who looks just like this, too, because that's what I know is normal and that's what's familiar. So this is the big setup for betrayal in a relationship. We can't see the truth; we can't feel the truth either from who we're with or from within ourselves.
Here are some other things about adult children that really set this whole thing up. It makes for a very rich environment for betrayal to happen. For children who grow up in families like this, betrayal happens probably from before the time that they're born, and they experience that betrayal for their entire lives, and that's what normal is. So, when there's a betrayal going on in the relationship, that tension is there and they can feel it, and it's horrible but it's familiar.
So, constantly in relationships, they will either betray or be betrayed because they're retraumatizing themselves; they're unconsciously seeking out the familiar.
KLONTZ: The thing about retraumatization is, is little kids, they had adaptive things that they used to get through the moment, and they use the very same things as adults�they pretend not to see; they pretend not to hear; and they don't know what this thing is in their gut, so they ignore it.
ZUGICH: Claudia Black's rules of children growing up in alcoholic or dysfunctional families, these are the three commandments of a relationship with betrayal. Don't talk about it. Don't talk about how scared you are that something's going on, some secret that you don't know what it is. And don't talk if you're acting out and maybe in protection.
Don't trust�I don't trust myself; I don't trust what I'm seeing. I'm not really seeing what I'm seeing; I'm not picking up the cues. I don't trust that if I say what's bothering me in the relationship that it will either be heard or it won't completely destroy the relationship. I don't trust myself and don't feel�for heaven's sakes, don't feel�because if you feel, it's going to be a disaster.
Adult children are so de-tuned, that this creates the environment as well because the person that acts out in the relationship is so shut down from feeling that they need something hugely intense, really risky, to even feel a little bit. So an affair is a perfect kind of stimulus for that, just tuning up the feelings just so you can feel anything at all.
For the person that's being betrayed, they're de-tuned, and they stay de-tuned, because to tune into what you're really feeling is too scary, too dangerous, and it may mean the demise of the relationship. We know this one well, don't we? It's a lot easier to lie than tell the truth, and that fits for both parties�and it also fits for the self; I'd rather lie to myself by minimizing what's really going on.
I want to people-please. So if I suspect that my partner may be betraying me, well, let me just be a better wife, or let me be a better husband, or let me just do a few more things for you, or whatever. Also in my mind, I'm going to make my partner's behavior okay with me. I'm going to make it okay somehow�even though my gut's going like this, I'm really going to ignore that.
We find worth through others, we adult children. So the partner that goes outside of the relationship, they need somebody to adore them; they're just not getting that in the relationship. This partner is going to see�this affair person, if it's an affair�is going to be more tuned into the fantasy, and they're probably going to get adored, at least for a while. The person that's been betrayed is going to be so afraid to speak their truth because if the relationship goes, who am I, because that's my only role, that's my worth in life is my connection to you.
Black-and-white thinking; black-and-white relationships. It's either a fantasy�my marriage is this thing I have created in my own mind, and of course my partner's not going to live up to that, or it's a complete disaster, horrible, can't stand to be here. They don't see all the in betweens, they don't see the reality of what an intimate relationship is, which is good and which is bad and which is in between. We guess at what normal is, and that's all about that black veil.
Okay. Let's see, is it normal that Ted really confides in his female friend, and Ted wonders, is it normal that she stops for a drink after work with her male colleague? So we guess at what normal is, and we don't want to believe that it's anything bad.
KLONTZ: Now, some of you mentioned that betrayal had to do with dishonesty, and when Margie and I first got together, our commitment to each other was to tell the total truth. I don't know if you realize how short a period of time that is, but it sort of fell apart for us one day when we were talking about how we thought and felt and saw each other, and I said, �Well, you know, the one thing that's really true about you, I really like you, but you're not that pretty.�
Now, that was how I honestly felt at that moment. I mean, it wasn't her appearance that attracted me; it was her brain�that's what I was saying�but somehow she didn't take it that way. <Laughter> So I'm confused. I know that dishonesty in relationship is not a good thing, but honesty doesn't appear to be that good either.
ZUGICH: Well, I said, �Okay." And I said, �Well, you know what? You're really not that big." <Laughter> I meant tall!
KLONTZ: So we had to go back and redefine truth telling. She knows that it's not probably good to share when she wakes up this morning and looks, �God, he looks old��it's probably not a good time to share that. So the truth, if it were simple�just tell the truth or don't tell the truth�it would be easy, but it's certainly not that simple.
Margie and I were together�and this is really statistically what they tell us�about five, seven years into a relationship from where it begins, five, seven years in, things begin to happen, and this is what happens. People change, and they forget to tell you.
Now, I would say people change and they don't know how to tell each other. We added this bottom part is they don't even tell themselves; they don't even recognize that there's a shift or a change. They are so out of touch with who they are that they don't recognize the shifts or changes, and they don't know what to do with that.
Suddenly, I change, my feelings change, and she doesn't look quite as good a partner as she was at one point in time, and I don't really understand that. Instead of going inside and saying what has changed me, I begin to identify the things that she would need to change in order for me to revert back to that spot.
So we're about seven years into our relationship, and I was starting to have trouble. Now, trouble for me and Margie both is we are inclined to go outside of our primary relationship to get needs met that are not being met within the relationship�that's our inclination. I know that we are not the only ones who do that. That's training�we watched that happen. We watched our mother confide in other people�sometimes it was us. We watched our fathers do things, say things, whatever, but they never said it to each other. So that became the norm; so that's how we get our needs met.
So, we're rolling along. We are Mr. and Mrs. Recovery in our little town in Michigan . We went to meetings together, we went to all these things together, and people would always tell me coming out, �You are so lucky your wife is with you." I would say, �Thank you very much,� but on the inside, I'm thinking, �Why don't I feel lucky? I don't feel lucky." I was really close to the edge of moving into another place in terms of getting my needs met; I was very close to doing that. My therapist said, �Before you do anything, please come talk to me.�
So I did, and this is the representation�literally, this is what happened: She said, �How would you visualize your relationship with Margie?" I said, �Well, you know, it's like this gazing ball." What kind of words would you use to describe this? What are the adjectives you would use? Shiny? Pure? Whole? Bright? This is what all the people are saying, �You are so lucky.�
So, I began thinking, "There's really something wrong with me." She said, �Before you make that decision��because you know what follows after you make a decision there's something wrong with you? I'll go find somebody who thinks there's nothing wrong with me. She said, �I'm not sure it's about you,� and I was thinking, �Well, I knew it was about her.�
She said, �In your mind's eye, take this ball and begin turning it over. Turn it around, take a look, see what's there,� and this is literally what happened. I saw a hole; in this otherwise perfect relationship, there's a missing piece. She said, �It's not about you or her; it's about the piece in your relationship that's missing." My guess is because this ball is almost totally whole, it's mostly together, there's a lot of energy here and there's a lot of hope. But unless you pay attention to this and figure out what you have to do to repair this whole, it will sink.
That was very clear to me. That's when I went home and said to Margie, �If we don't do something, something really bad is going to happen to our relationship." She got the message, and we were able to act on that.
So this is what I always think about when people come in and say, �Our marriage is in trouble,� or �Our relationship is in trouble,� and it's like, �Well, what's the missing piece?" Because, as human beings, we want to be whole�we will do whatever we have to do to fill this. We'll try to fill it with work, perhaps food�whatever it is, there's a missing piece, we try to fill it in; we'll try to fill it in with kids, and very often, we'll try to fill it in with people outside of our primary relationship.
So I think Burt and Suzy would agree that what we have to do on a daily basis is we have to look for the cracks because this hole didn't just appear; this is an end result of a number of things we haven't paid attention to. In this globe, there are weak spots�there will be a crack up here; and if I'm not looking, I won't notice it; the crack will widen.
Now, a crack in the sidewalk is not a big deal. Even a crack in a basement is not that big a deal, but it's a little bit bigger deal than on the sidewalk. But we see a big crack in a bridge and we realize there's going to be a collapse if we don't do something. If we run a nuclear power plant and we see a crack in the wall, we immediately pay attention to it. What I ask couples to do is to imagine that this relationship is as fragile as a nuclear reactor container. Pay attention or things will blow up and be destroyed.
So this is the metaphor that I use, and last year, I don't know, it must have been karma or something, starting in October, and going through to the end of February, there were four couples from across the United States that I had had some contact with�Margie and I had some contact with�and I got four phone calls within about three months, and they said this: �He's just left and I don't understand what happened.� �She's just left; I don't understand what happened.� Like what's the message here?
What I found myself doing was trying to draw things. I'm sort of a visual person�I don't know if you've noticed that or not, but I try�a visual person trying to explain the unexplainable, really, and this is the best I came up with. This is what we think happens. One of the people was really stunned that everybody was angry at them because they left their marriage; they just couldn't understand it.
They told their friends right away, and they told their spouse right away, �I'm done, I don't want to be here anymore; I'm leaving the relationship." All the friends, including the spouse, were pissed, and they said, �Well, I don't understand; I told the truth,� because they did tell the truth. �I'm leaving. I don't want to be here anymore.�
I said, �Well, the truth by some people is defined a little differently than that,� and we had quite an engaging conversation with, �Well, what are you talking about?� It was really one of the most honest conversations I've ever been in because this person was saying, �Do you mean there's another definition to truth?� This happened four times, with four different people, and I'm thinking, �There's something here in common.�
So what I have done is created this little triangle, if you will. In this heart, that we tend to tell other people, including our spouse. In fact, our spouses, in the most difficult things, are usually the last ones to know. I don't know if you've ever been in a situation where you've been talking about and it's news to your spouse and they look at you like, �I never knew that.� So our spouses are among the last�there's a part of us that we know about and we're not telling anybody�especially our partners.
Then there's all this stuff in here, I call them worms. They're sort of like the songs that you hear a little snippet of and then you can't get it out of your head for a day and a half, those little worms that go around. Not complete thoughts; just feelings, just glimpses, this, that, and the other thing�have no idea what's going on.
The basis of all this is, there's a part of you saying, �This is who I am�pay attention to me.� This is part of yourself saying, �This is what I need��the part of this that's saying, �We need somehow to get this.� But it's at such a level that we don't pay attention to it, and someday, when we least expect it, somewhere, we walk in somewhere and there they are and there it is, and we think it started there, and that's not where it started�it actually started down here.
I call it, �When are you going to share a writing song?� We live in Nashville , and the songwriting process is you have a thought, then you jot down some words, or you have a tune that comes into your head, and then you write the whole deal.
The question is, in a relationship, at what point do you share the song with your partner? What we suggest is the earlier you do that, the greater the emotional intimacy; the later you do that, the more dangerous it is because by the time we get to the top, the song is already written. Perhaps the demo's actually been cut and somebody's actually decided to record it�but there's been no input.
Then this last part, the increasing intimacy, is there as I just said, and then there's a part where you have absolutely no consciousness about what's going on. If somebody said, �Why did you do that?� you have no clue; there's not even been an inkling of anything that's happened.
ZUGICH: And if you are an adult child, this middle section of the triangle, just think of it as having a black veil over it�there is very little, if any, access to any of this. So you've got another strike against you in terms of looking at that.
KLONTZ: Okay, what do we do once it happens? For some people, they just move away from it, assuming that if we just get out of town, the whole thing will be over. What we know is that if you've been in one, you'll be in another; more likely than not. Unless something very different happens internally for you, you will continue to be in relationships whether you're either the betrayer or the betrayed.
Sometimes you'll switch roles because you know that one isn't all that pleasant, and you find yourself in another one. So the first one, you were betrayed; you get into another one and you then become the betrayer. But it's still the same dynamic, same causes.
So, as this picture would indicate, what direction do we take? We wanted to share with you some assumptions that we have. We assume that a couple in this space will have some ambivalence�they sort of want to; they sort of don't want to. We don't try to move them from there; what we try to do is give as much space and have them talk and clarify as much as they can about this ambivalence.
For those of you who are clinicians, I would strongly recommend a process called motivational interviewing . That's exactly what they do, they stay with the ambivalence�they worship the ambivalence, really, because people will find their own truth there.
Many times people try to push, like, well, you have to be totally committed in order to do this; or since it seems like you don't want to go on, just quit. I've actually heard clinicians say that, like, �Well, move.� What we find is they become even more resistant, so we believe there's some ambivalence. We believe that there's a lot of momentum towards recommitting. Remember the globe is mostly together; and no matter how damaging it is, the energy is on the side of the recoupling�that's where the energy is. So the ambivalence is actually slanted in the direction of trying to get it back together. There's all kinds of history, there's family usually involved, there's friends, there's all this tradition, so we sort of work with that, the inclination to recommit.
The other and maybe the most controversial part of this is we think that each player plays a role in the drama because this is a drama. This is very difficult if you are the offended. It's very difficult to put your head around the concept that perhaps there are things that you could have done, did do, shouldn't have done, should have done, whatever it is, that could have changed the dynamics of this. This is not about shame and it's not about blame; it's about you didn't know what to do. You couldn't see because you were not taught to see; you couldn't hear because you were not taught to hear.
Also, the offender is not the evil person that everyone would make him or her out to be. They are responsible for what they did; they may not have understood that they had choices, but they were as much�and we believe it's about 50/50 and maybe at the worst 60/40.
All right, so knowing all this, what do we do?
ZUGICH: We believe that each partner shares responsibility, and again, the actor-outer definitely needs accountability, and definitely needs to be accountable for their actions. But there're all kinds of stuff in that middle of the triangle that's going on, and that's equally shared.
We believed that three simultaneous processes go on, and that need to go on, in order to heal from a betrayal in a coupleship. The first is that the person who has been betrayed needs healing. The second is that the person who has done the acting out, the betrayer, needs healing. And finally, the relationship�we call it the couple ship �needs healing.
So, what this means is that the betrayed person, after the betrayal, there's a shock, and there's incredibly huge, huge confusion, feelings, fright, vulnerability. Part of the healing of the betrayed is to have all those feelings, and they deserve to have�
It isn't always the best place�in fact, it isn't a good place�to have those feelings on your partner, and that's where clinicians come in is to help people have the feelings, but to be able to come to a place eventually of some emotional regulation, so that they can share the feelings with their partner, but not take a hammer and slug them over the head with it. Because often, the betrayed person wants to hurt their partner just as much as they've been hurt, and that's a real normal, natural feeling.
So the betrayed needs to do their feelings, and then begin to clarify and find out their own truth, and find a path to it. That may be family of origin work; it may be all kinds of things.
KLONTZ: We call that, what set you up to be betrayed .
ZUGICH: Taking that black veil and finding out what's behind it and what's in front of it. The betrayer needs healing as well. The betrayer needs to also look at who has really been hurt here. I think Burton will tell you something about what he's discovered about that. They need to deal with their anger and resentments about what was and wasn't in the relationship. So they need to also take a look at their own truth, what they want, what they need, and how to get it. And they need to have their feelings about all this as well in a safe place.
Then the coupleship needs healing; and this is a huge process, the beginning of which is right after the betrayal has been revealed, that a safety container is developed. That may be some just baseline things that both people in the coupleship need in order to move forward in trying to heal the relationship, and I'll talk about that in a little while.
KLONTZ: Could I have a volunteer to do this? I was a baseball coach, so forgive me. I use this a lot, but the idea is�and I've asked our friend Barbara to be the baseball catcher�now one of the things I know about Barbara and catching things is it immediately causes tension and anxiety. That's why I chose her because she's going to represent a person who's trying to put a relationship back together.
Whether she catches this or not�we'll imagine�determines whether she'll be successful or not. So her job is to catch it. It's a big deal to put back together a relationship that's fallen. So you understand what's at stake here, right? Now, what I'd like for you to do is pay attention to how she does this, what you see and sense, because we're going to do this a couple different ways. Ready? Okay. Don't drop it because we may not have another chance, all right? <Laughter> All right.
She's doing really well, but I don't know if you saw a little bit of this, all right? What we ask people to do, and Suzy and Burt, this is what we said, �Do this one first, this one second, do this one third,� and really, it's like little chunks. So with this baseball, it's the same size but you don't have to catch it, which means we don't know how this relationship is going to turn out. But we do know that if you'll practice this, if this one works, it'll be better; if it doesn't work, you'll be better in the next one. That's the only thing we can promise.
So your job this time is to only focus on one thing, and that is when the leather of the baseball touches your hands. You don't have to catch it; just tell me what color's on top. Are you noticing anything different about her body language? Not as nervous, much more relaxed; and you would have to be a baseball coach to understand this, but she has perfect fundamentals for catching, which means she has a really good chance of being successful in this. It's what you focus on.
Very often it's like, �Well, are we going to make it?" We don't know. But we do know that if you take these steps, it's the best guarantee that we can give anyone that there is a chance to do this. Now, every once in a while, she'll forget and go, �Oh, my goodness, I've got to catch the ball." She has not dropped the ball yet because the point is not catching the ball, but tell me what's on top.
So the first thing Suzy has to do is Suzy, forget about Burt, forget about the relationship; get yourself into a place where you can find out what caused you to be in a position where this happened to you. Burt, you need to find out what made you go outside the relationship to get your help. And they did it.
Now I'm sure that a thousand things they had in their heads, like, �Are we going to do it?� and, �What about Burt?� and, �What if he doesn't do his?� and, �What if she doesn't do hers?� and all these other kinds of things, and that's focusing on the big thing. Just focus on one thing at a time. We have different colors, and different colors that have different meanings.
All right. So here's what happens, and we'll quickly go through this. This is the task. In getting the relationship back together, as individuals each of the people have to do this: Who am I, really? Which sounds really easy, but it's probably the most difficult thing human beings do because you aren't who you were yesterday. Who am I today is not exactly the same as who you were yesterday. What do you really want? I mean, really want. I mean, really, really want. What's really important to you? Then, how do I ask for what�whatever the answers are, how do I get that in a relationship?
These are the three key things that a person has to begin�that's what the search is. When I said to Suzy, �You need to go do your work,� what we were saying is, �Who are you? What do you really want? And how do you negotiate in any relationship for what it is that you want? How do you not settle for less? How do you do these things?�
You'll notice that doing that we open up a little bit of that line that was there. There's a doorway now from the things you had no consciousness of. As you begin to pay attention here, things begin to emerge. Your truth begins to emerge, and the other things are there too.
ZUGICH: And doing that is really about taking this black veil and getting it off of you, knowing what's going on on the inside and making it match what's happening on the outside.
Now, in order to do this, in order to go in and shine that light around and find out what your truth is and what the truth is, it's a scary deal, especially if you have just been in a betrayal situation and you're terribly vulnerable, terribly wide open. So we think there are three conditions that need to occur at various levels in order to go into that middle part of the triangle and find out what all this is about.
First of all, is it safe enough to do this? Therapists can help find the red dot, the black dot. What piece of safety do I need to take the next step? I think, if I'm correct, one of the things that Suzy needed from Burton was, �I need you to end the affair, okay?� And Burton asked Suzy for some things, like, �Don't try to control me,� I think�I'm not sure if that's accurate or not, but those are the types of things�some baseline safety agreements in order to take the next step.
Then other kinds of safety issues along the way, of course, are going to be built up as well. �Do I have the skills to do this?� Now, skills are all kinds of things. First of all, self-discovery skills. How do I go about finding out who I am? How do I go about learning what this black veil is about my history and how it's influenced me? Then there's a whole slew of other skills�negotiation skills, conflict management skills, emotional regulation skills, communication skills�all of those coupleship things that are on a day-to-day basis that you've got to have or you've got to learn and practice to put things back together.
Finally, and this is the most daunting, �Do I have the courage to risk this?� That's both to take a look at myself because it's scary�I don't know who I am, so what if I find out I'm nobody or horrible? That's the scary part. It's also very scary to risk this. So part of the courage to surrender, it takes courage to give up the fantasy, it takes courage to let go, it takes courage to do all that self-discovery, and I could make a whole list.
On your handout, these three things are spelled out in more detail; we don't have slides for those, but they're on the handout if you'd like to see those.
KLONTZ: So with my triangle, this is what it looks like when people do their work. The nice part about this is you don't have to wait two or three years to begin having these good outcomes that this work creates. You have the safety, skills, and courage to find out who you are, what you want, how to ask for it. It creates an open door, and you'll notice the deception, intentional deception, is gone. That's what our experience has been in terms of how this works.
Again, most of the work is in here; and as this occurs, as this flow of information occurs, intimacy begins to build in pretty dramatic ways, and impossible things are the result of that.
ZUGICH: That's all theory, and well and good. These two people have lived through it, and a lot of you out there, and certainly [...] who has. So a chronicle, really, of her journey from the pre-discovery of a betrayal and how the two of them have worked together to get to where they are today. So if you guys would like to come up, we'd love to have you tell your story.
SUZY: Thank you, Margie. Thank you, Ted. Everybody can see Burton and they know he's real, living, breathing, and�sit wherever you're comfortable for a few minutes. I'll just tell you a little bit about me and us and our story.
I was a journalist for a number of years and working freelance. We had raised two children. They were sons, and they had taken over our business�my husband had started a full-service real estate company. So he had this brilliant idea that he wanted to retire. I'm thinking, �Well, wait a minute. You may want to retire; I'm not ready for that yet." He wasn't even 55 when this happened, and I'm thinking, �Well, I sort of held back on my career for all this time, and now it's my turn. I mean, I want to shine.�
So I had this great idea that I was going to do more�and I got a wonderful job�I was a regional editor for Better Homes and Gardens and a group of related publications�and I was loving this experience. So retirement was like the furthest thing from my mind. So the more I wanted to work, the more Burton wanted to play, and it was a pretty inevitable collision that resulted. I didn't say anything to anybody for two years about my suspicions, although I open up the book Back from Betrayal with the scene where we were riding in our car. We were building a new home, and it was my dream house, and we were in the car and the cell phone rang, Burton's cell phone rang, and you know cell phones can really do a number on us. The cell phone rang, and he answered the phone. From the other end of the phone I'm hearing, <friendly, melodic tone> �Hiiiiiiiiiii!� He says, �Yeah. Okay. Good-bye,� and that was about the extent of the conversation. So my stomach at that point was on the floor of the car, and I said to him, �Who was that?" He says, �Jerry. He was calling on business." This was the first time in our 31 years of marriage that I had ever known my husband to lie to me. This was not a good thing.
But denial is�I'm the queen of it�and I managed to sort of deny that something seriously was amiss for two years. After two years, I got incredibly depressed and disturbed, and Burton had pulled so many disappearing acts that I couldn't take it anymore. I had a girlfriend who told me about Onsite. I called there; they said, �Well, here's the information on our couples' program. We'll send it to you. Be sure you call us back right away because it tends to fill up quickly." I said, �I don't need the information�we're coming.�
I told this to Burton and he says, �Oh." So he says, �Well, if it's important, I'll go with you." <Laughter> So he came with me, and we spent four days of his continuing to stonewall me. At the end of that time, I was pretty desperate and thinking �We're not going to get anywhere here; this is our last big hope and it's a dud.�
So what happened was, the last morning, at 4:30 in the morning, he awoke me and says to me, �I'm ready to tell you what's been going on if you're ready to hear it.� And he said, �Believe me, up until now you haven't been." So what I'd like to do is read you a couple of pages from the book Back From Betrayal with an ulterior motive�a couple of them. I'm hoping to inspire you to buy the book, and I'm hoping to inspire you to recommend it to your clients because when this happened to us, I looked for a memoir by someone who had gotten through betrayal and I couldn't find it. As a journalist, I thought, �Okay, this can't be too hard; I'm going to write this book." It was very hard; it took me five years.
So many workshops later, I learned that I had to write this story as though it were a novel, so it does read like fiction. So I want to read you a little bit from the book. We were fortunate enough to have Ted and Margie as our facilitators, so this is the negotiation that we went through the last day of the program when Burton finally told me what was going on.
On our final afternoon, Ted told our group I had requested their attention. I don't know what I'd have done if they hadn't agreed. I hoped they could help me find my way through this nightmare; I couldn't do it on my own.
Ted didn't put us back in the dreaded bed position. That was one of the exercises we did that I had seriously flunked. He placed two chairs in the middle of the room and asked Burton and me to sit facing each other. He and Margie drew up chairs beside us. Everyone else sat on the floor. Val and Bob leaned against the wall. Pam and George folded their legs Indian style. Albert and Marie slouched into backjacks. Leanne lay with her head in Tommy's lap.
Looking at them one by one, I said, �Thank you for giving us a second chance. You've been so open with your problems, you've given us the courage to face ours. This morning, Burton told me some tough stuff; I hope you can help us deal with it.
I told them what Burton had said about his current affair with Jody; his previous fling, the earlier affair with Sally. No one coughed, or whispered, or budged. My voice came out in a flat line. Looking back, I marvel at how calm I seemed. For someone who weeps over Folgers coffee commercials, I repeated the most hurtful words without a tear. It had been nine hours since Burton broke my heart; I hadn't been able to dry.
Burton sat still without expression�having negotiated hundreds of real estate deals, he had mastered the poker face. Ted turned to Burton, �Did Suzy sum up what you told her?" �She did." �Okay, then." Ted clapped his hands on his knees. �Let's get to the bottom line. Suzy, what is the one change you must have, and what are you willing to give?�
I was afraid to ask Burton to break up with Jody�afraid he wouldn't, or couldn't. Afraid half a marriage was better than no marriage. Without the people around me, I don't know if I could have forced out the words. I came up with something that sounded serious, like I meant what I said. In my most convincing tone, Burton agreed to end the affair immediately. Suzy will work to forgive him. Thirty-one years, two children, grandchildren someday.
�You want me to end the affair?" Burton said. �I'm prepared to do that." My heart leapt; my skin prickled. There was hope. Then, �They're only words. They don't mean anything." I pressed my lips together.
�You're in shock,� Burton said. �I doubt you're ready to forgive me. Why not just say you'll be honest about your feelings?" P.S., that would be a novelty for me. I am in shock. How can I ever forgive him?
Burton agrees to end the affair immediately. Suzy will be honest about her feelings. I said�I sounded like a robot��I can't agree to immediately.� I didn't think immediately was soon enough. I clenched my teeth, and waited.
�I've broken up with her before. We got back together. She won't believe me unless I do it in person. And I need to pick up my truck and horse trailer. Instead of immediately, make it as soon as possible." �How long is that?" �Within two weeks." �Too long. By the end of this weekend.�
We would arrive home on Wednesday afternoon. I ticked off the days on my fingers�Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday�four days to see if my husband would keep his word. �It seems like a long time, but I'll live with it.�
Albert jotted down our agreement in a notebook, tore out the page and passed it to me. �Burton agrees to end the affair as soon as possible, by Sunday at the latest. Suzy agrees to be honest with him about her feelings." Albert's choppy handwriting looked like the tracings of angels' wings.
I turned to Ted, �Can I ask another question?" �Go ahead." Burton sat with his running shoes planted on the floor, arms crossed, face blank. If he was angry or upset or uncomfortable, it didn't show. �How will you get to South Lyon?" �I'll have someone drive me." �I don't want to involve anyone else in this." Like I thought nobody else knew.
�I don't want to involve anyone else in this. I'll drive you to her house and wait." �That would be uncomfortable for you." I'd manage, I thought; I've had practice.
�You could take a cab and call me when you're dropped off, and again, the minute you leave,� I said. �A waste of money,� Burton said. �Jody lives an hour away.�
I raked my fingers through my hair. �I could drive you to someplace near her house; you could call a cab from there." �There are no cabs in the country, Suzy. I'll take one from home if it makes you more comfortable.�
I exhaled with relief. We had gotten through the breakup nightmare. I felt exhausted. I looked at Ted, wondering if we were finished. He spoke gently, �Suzy, things you're not thinking about may occur to you later. You might want to get some of them worked out now. For instance, when Burt goes to break up with Jody, how much time can he spend with her?�
Burton would need enough time to exchange a few pleasantries, say good-bye, and walk out the door. I didn't want to give Jody an extra second to dissuade him. �Fifteen minutes seems reasonable." Burton nodded.
�Is any physical contact acceptable?" Ted asked?
My stomach twisted. �I guess it would be okay to kiss her on the cheek�not on the lips." The minute the words left my mouth, I wanted to take them back. Val looked away. Pam coughed. �Kiss her on the cheek��how could I say something so inane?
At the end of our final small group session, Margie turned on the tape recorder. Twelve of us stood in a circle, arms around each other's shoulders, listening to Garth Brooks' The River. I had never heard the song before. One verse blew my heart wide open. For the first time that day, I began to sob.
Too many times we stand aside
And let the waters slip away
�Til what we put off �til tomorrow
Has now become today
So don't you sit upon the shoreline
And say you're satisfied
Choose to chance the rapids
And dare to dance the tide.
�Thank you,� I told my husband, �It's not any guy who gets to be the villain and the hero of the very same book.�
So we got through that, I got home, I thought, �Oh, now what? How do you get through the day to day of this situation?� Now you have this horrible piece of knowledge, and what are you going to do with it? And how anytime the phone rings, or how anytime he snaps at you, or how anytime you snap at him can you think this relationship isn't doomed?
So somehow or other�actually, the somehow was through Ted and Margie, who recommended a psychotherapist who had worked with them. Burton and I went to see Jim; I pretty much went to see Jim on my own after that, but he got us through it�he and Ted and Margie.
I then went back to Onsite and did something called the Living Center program, which was really invaluable. It was six and a half days without Burton, and six and a half days with almost not talking to Burton, and to think that I could do that was pretty amazing.
Then there was a little flirtation with the guy at Onsite, and of course, Ted and Margie said, �Don't you dare be alone with anybody from the program of the opposite sex." So of course I didn't. Generally, I am extremely scrupulous, and there was the betray- er and the betray- ee in this case, and you can guess which was which.
But I did get through it. Burton was really happy to see me when I came back, and somehow he had stayed out of trouble, and Ted was right. We did everything Ted and Margie said to do because, for God's sake, we didn't know how to handle this otherwise. We both developed a spiritual aspect to our relationship, and it's been an incredible journey.
Along the way, I thought to myself, you know, �Well, I can't find this memoir, so maybe I could write it.� Then the first year of writing the memoir, it was becoming sort of a stressful thing for us; and even though I was trying to conceal our identities�and I'm a journalist; I am not a fiction writer�so it was really a challenge. So we were the Franklins from Indiana instead of the Farbmans from Franklin.
That went on for about a year, and then it was obvious we were developing some problems over the book itself. So I said to Burton, �Okay, I prayed about this." God has become my absolute ally in this entire experience, and I wouldn't be here otherwise. But I prayed about it, and God said, �Okay, give this over. Read the book to Burton and let him have his opinion.�
So I did. I read to him about the Franklins from Indiana, and I think sort of on some level, Burton knew that there was no way this book was going to fly as the Franklins from Indiana. He was very quiet when he first heard the first draft, which now, what you will see�what you will, God willing, purchase, right Gary? I'm trying to sell books for Gary; he's my distributor and I really want him to publish my next book.
I forgot to tell you what the best thing about the recovery that Burton and I went through is, that, unfortunately, I was diagnosed with a real severe case of cancer within months of releasing the book. So I feel like God wants me to write that book next. That's the one I'm working on, and I want Gary to publish it. So if you go buy this book, there's a better shot, and also if you recommend it to your clients.
But in any case, what I want to do next is turn this over to Burton because you will hear a little bit from him about what we've been through and his take on the whole situation, and then if we have time or if you're inspired, feel free to ask questions. Hi, Wyatt! I recognized the cowboy hat. Okay. Ciao. <Applause.>
BURTON: Suzy is great with names and not great with faces; it's not Wyatt, but it's all right. I'm trying to think what I can tell you that you don't already know. Sitting here this afternoon, listening to Marge and Ted, I just�it ceases [ sic ] to amaze me how much you'll learn. I just sat there; I was just picking it all up and learning more and more about us and learning more and more about relationships. However, I think there are a few things I can say. When I went to Onsite�actually, first of all, I want to tell you, my wife is a writer, and for 32 years of our lives, she would always say that, �I have nothing to write about; I don't have a story to tell." So she wrote about fashion and she wrote about design and a bunch of other things. She was always a great writer, but she never had a story. So look what I had to do to get you to write a story. <Laughter>
Actually, one of the things that I have been able to do in our relationship is at least use my humor to get through it because a lot of the things that have gone on over the past several years are very difficult; they're very emotional. Over the last several months, we've had a really rough time in our home, but Suzy's getting better and she looks great and we're really very optimistic about the future. However, when we went to Onsite, I went because Suzy felt we really had to be there, and I really did everything in my power to let her feel that all these problems were hers and they weren't mine at all. When we got to Onsite, for the first four days of the four and a half or five days that we were there, both of us believed that it was Suzy and it wasn't me�I had no problems at all. I didn't have to be there; Suzy was there because she needed help. The only person that really knew the truth was probably everybody but Suzy because certainly I knew the truth.
We were going through a couple of these skits, so one of the skits we went through, all this baggage that you have in a marriage, it was all on Suzy, and I had nothing. Ted said, �Stop." He said, �Wait a minute. I've been doing this a long time, and truly, I've never met anyone where it was 100 percent one person and nothing on the other side or even 80/20. It's usually much closer to 50/50." It was the first time I thought there was hope because I thought it was 100 percent me.
That night we went back to the room, and Suzy still didn't have a clue as to what was going on. I knew that we were in a lot of trouble; I could see it in all the skits that we were doing, and I realized that it had gone a lot further than I ever hoped it would ever go. So about 4:00 in the morning I told Suzy that I was prepared to tell her what was going on if she really wanted to know because she had told me more than once that, �If you ever do anything that is not positive for our relationship, take it to the grave; I don't want to know anything about it." I guess to some extent I kind of believed that that was my license to do what I wanted to do as long as I kept it to myself.
So anyway, we talked about it. Suzy went into shock. We went through that process that Suzy wrote about; and when I got back into Detroit, the first thing that I thought is, �Why did I tell her the truth? Why did I do that?� I mean, I always swore I would never do that. I didn't want to hurt her; that was never the plan. But I did it�I did tell her the truth�and I figured for sure we were going to get a divorce.
The reason I thought that was that I was projecting my own thoughts and my own feelings to Suzy. Now, I have learned in relationships that very shortly after you're married�or even, you don't even have to be married�you know immediately the reaction of your mate or your friend or your partner, but what you don't know is the thought process behind the reaction. In Suzy's and my case, I absolutely knew immediately her reaction to things, but what I didn't know was what she was thinking and how she was thinking because I was projecting my own thoughts. So I thought we'd get a divorce, and so I had to go through a process of really beating myself up pretty badly, and I did. I was fortunately involved with an organization in Detroit where there's 14 men that meet together on a monthly basis, and we share problems; and up to the point that I started to speak, we never shared that kind of information. We probably sat and lied to each other a lot for a long time.
But I changed that when I really shared with them what was going on in our relationship, and it was very emotional, very difficult for me. However, what I gained from it was kind of an interesting series of thoughts. The first part was, how could I do this to the person I love? I mean, here's the person that I chose to marry. She didn't force me to marry her; no one forced me to marry her. I chose to marry her, and then I proceeded to hurt her. Why would I do that? I felt terrible about that.
So for the first 30 days or 60 days, I felt terrible that I could hurt her, and I said to the fellows I was with, I said, �Boy, I am not about�� and some of this is in the book��I am not about to ever do that again; I couldn't do that to my wife." Then after about 60 days or 75 days, the thought went to my mind that if I ever did do it again, I better really be smart about it this time and not let her ever know about it. And boy, the guys that I was with said, �Well, he's coming back to normal again; he's getting back into the swing of things.�
Then several days later, it occurred to me that what I learned was that if I did do something to hurt her, Suzy could leave me; she was able to leave. As much as she wouldn't want to leave me, she could leave me. And my kids could stop talking to me. And my employees could leave me too. And my friends could leave me. And the person that I'd be stuck with is me.
I was asking myself, �Well, if I'm now just me, why would I be hurting me? Because I'm the one that's being hurt. Everybody else has left; I'm left alone, and I've hurt myself.�
Once I realized that what I was doing was hurting me, I then tried to figure out why would I hurt me. Then I went back and realized I didn't like myself very much, and that for a whole series of things that we all have in our past, whether it's parents, siblings, friends, failures, successes, whatever went on in your life, kind of built you to that point.
What I did is I disguised it by working. I worked hard. I was involved in a zillion boards. I was involved in all these different activities so that I could disguise not having to deal with my own feelings and not having to deal with me. All of a sudden, when I decided I wanted to retire and take time off of work, I had the time to begin to realize that I had to get to know who I was.
I am also ADD; didn't know that till I was 55 years old, and that was kind of a rude awakening also. As I got through that and learned about ADD and began to work through all of that and learned exactly what that was, I started to get to know me, and I started to find a way to love myself.
One of the things that I did was an ex. I exercise, and I've shared this with several people that have been through what I've been through and continue to try to go through it. I wake up in the morning and I go to the bathroom and I look in the mirror. Now this is before I shave, before I did anything, and I would say, �Burt, I love you,� and I'd look right in my�eye-to-eye�and I would see all the things that I didn't love. I would see the stress and the unhappiness in my face, and I saw all these things I didn't love. But then I would ask�and I realized all the activities that I was doing, I didn't love�then I would say to myself in the mirror, �What can I do today that will make that statement more true tomorrow?" Then I'd go on my way.
I did that on almost a daily basis, and eventually, I started to see the light, I started to see that there was some love there, and there were some positive things in me. As I got through it�it took about two years�and I was able to make that change, to see me in a loving way, and Suzy was going through it with other structure, that we were able then to come together and to share our love for each other and to understand that instead of it being a challenge, and so often relationships become this balancing between the two of you��If you're happy, I'm not happy; if you're doing this, I want to do that.� It's almost a negotiation, whatever you want to do.
Once we got past that and we began to understand that we can really enjoy each other's passions by just simply�because it's your passion, not just because it's mine�but just enjoy it because it's yours and to be there, and to get fulfillment from that activity because you want to do it. There's no negotiation; you don't have to do anything for me tomorrow. It's just to be there and to share that time with her.
We got there. It took about two to two and a half years, and we got there, and now it's an everyday thing. Then when Suzy got sick, it changed the relationship again. Where we'd thought we'd really reached Utopia, we realized we hadn't even started yet. <Applause.>
SUZY: Thank you, Burton. He's great about remembering the things I forget to say. I just want to give you a couple of words about our appearance on Oprah, because that was really quite a remarkable thing. When Oprah got hold of the book, she said�and she would hold it up to the audience; she said this several times�she said, �And the book is called Back From Betrayal ,� and she said, �This is pretty much everything you need to know about dealing with infidelity,� and it was really very powerful.
But two things happened in that program that were pretty amazing. Our sons went, too, and our older son is really this gorgeous kid; and at one point he had this lone tear sliding down his cheek, and he got inundated with e-mails. And our younger son, who was also on the program, whose gorgeous pregnant wife was also shown, wanted to know why he didn't get any e-mails. <Laughter>
But a couple of things did occur. Oprah's very persistent, and she manages to get the information she wants. So at one point she said�and, oh, one of the things I should say to you is I never wanted to know the details. I figured my imagination would play enough tricks. I didn't want to know what had happened between Burt and this other woman.
She says to Burton, � So , Burt,� she says, �did you tell her you love her?" So Burton says, �I told her I cared about her." Oprah says, �All right. That's why these women stay with these men, because they tell them they care about them. Did you tell her you love her, Burt?" So Burton said, �I did,� and I'm going�and of course, that made for very good TV. That was one detail I had not relished hearing.
The other detail that also came that Oprah managed to pull out was that my son David�which I didn't even know this�had fielded two phone calls from this woman, and she thought that he sounded a lot like his father, so that was another experience.
But what has happened as a result of what we've been through is we're now much closer as a family, and Andy, the younger one who was so opposed to this, who's very conscious of our image, and rightfully so�we have a big company, and our signs are all over the city of Detroit�was very concerned. He, bless his heart, has come around to the extent that he was here for a conference and he said, �Mom, bring three books." So Andy's like okay with it now.
Burton didn't mention it to you, but he actually went to the Meadows and did a program, and then David took it upon himself to go to the Meadows and go to a program himself.
As a result of what we've been through, I think our boys now know that it's okay for them to screw up and it's okay for them to work it out as well. So our family is much stronger as a result of all this.
BURTON: David also went to Onsite too.
SUZY: With his then-wife.
BURTON: Right.
SUZY: It doesn't always work.
KLONTZ: We'd like you to ask any questions you might have. Okay. We'll stop there. I'll repeat it for the tape.
The first question is, when you broke up with Jody, did you grieve that loss? Okay. So the two-part question is, did you grieve the loss; and assuming that you did grieve the loss, how did you manage that?
BURTON: That's a great question. Number one, when I broke up with her�and I had broken up with her before�I don't know that I totally believed it myself at that moment. It took me some time to really get to the point where I really realized that this was over. In regard to the relationship with Suzy, there were a lot of things going on. Suzy was about to go back to Onsite; I was supposed to go back shortly after Suzy went back. I was riding a horse, I broke eight ribs, and I wasn't able to go back, and then I ended up doing another program somewhere else.
At the same time all that was going on, in my head I was so confused that I didn't really know what to do. I think that in regard to that relationship specifically, I began to see what it really was, what the relationship was, and that it really wasn't this loving, beautiful relationship; it was a relationship that was convenient�both of our parts, we both got something out of it. I think that as time went on, I was relieved that it was over and that it was behind me. I think we probably would have ended up getting a divorce.
Oh, I'm sorry. The question was, what do I think would happen if I had not on that fourth day, fourth night, told the truth? I think that because we were in a safe environment�at Onsite�that we were able to talk about it and to get some tools to be able to communicate with each other, to help work our way through it. If we hadn't done that and it had come out another way, it very possibly would have ended up in a divorce, which would have been really a shame.
The question was, did I feel that if I pushed it far enough, that Suzy would have been�was I trying to blame Suzy for my actions that would cause her to take an action of divorce, and I could blame her to do it as opposed to taking the action myself? There were times for about a month or two where I said to Suzy, �Why don't you just leave me? Why don't you just leave me? Why don't you just leave me?" Suzy's response was, �I'm not ready to make that decision yet. I'm not there.� She wanted to go through it and understand really what happened.
I'll tell you something else that's quite interesting�two things. One, Suzy never blamed me. She didn't want to get back at me, and that helped us. If she had taken that�if we had gone on that roller coaster ride where she blamed me and she was going to give me a lot of difficulty and then I would get angry and give it back to her, and before you know it, you never would quite get to the relationship�Suzy never did that. She really tried to figure out what happened�why were we not able to be able to be together. Why were we not able to just share with each other? So that really helped me a lot.
Secondly is that Suzy�unknown to me, because I thought Suzy was perfect and I was the bad guy, totally�and I realized when Ted said it's closer to 50/50, maybe 60/40, and in our situation, I'm willing to go 70/30�but there were some definite areas on both sides.
The thing that really helped me is that as we started to find love for each other, and ourselves, that we were able to share our feelings emotionally. In other words, we could be emotional with each other and know we were safe, and that really was an important element in our relationship and allowed us to grow where we are now. We really are emotionally connected; and if Suzy's in a bad mood or if she's feeling blue, she can feel that way, and I understand it. I don't try to change it, I don't try to make it better�I'm with her, I'm her friend; vice versa.
SUZY: We should also mention that you wrote the afterward for the book.
BURTON: Well, actually what happened�she's the writer�she interviewed me several times, and she wrote the book. <Laughter> But she got me�she really captured me�and every time I read it, it gets me, really gets me, because she really captured my feelings.
SUZY: Yes?
BURTON: The question is, are you both in total forgiveness now, and we both have answered yes.
SUZY: Not only are we both in total forgiveness, but I know I, for one, realize the gift in what we went through; and painful as it is, and as much as I wouldn't wish that on anyone else, we wouldn't be where we are today if we hadn't gotten through all that.
BURTON: All right. You first.
SUZY: Oh, trust remained an issue for a long time, yeah. The first thing, how did I work through the whole trust question? I started out by we negotiated an agreement that Burton wouldn't screw around with anybody else for at least until he attended a program of his own. I figured that was some sort of containable period of time, and we used the skills that Ted and Margie gave us to negotiate that. Then I just did everything I could to believe in this little agreement.
It took a long time, and it took a lot of prayer. We started studying A Course in Miracles together, which really sort of gave us a vehicle for learning to forgive and learning to realize that love is all that's real. So it just, it's a process. As they said, they said, �trust the process,� at Onsite, and if you follow it, it works.
BURTON: My answer's a little different. What I believe in regard to trust is that if you're hung up with the thought about trusting your partner, you're never going to get there. You've got to learn to trust yourself, and you've got to learn that�I used to ask Suzy, because we've always had a fairly decent relationship, even as difficult as it was, and we would kid a lot and we'd joke, I said to her, I said, �How much do you trust me?" at different times during this recovery period, and Suzy said once, �Fifty percent." I said, �Well, that's pretty good, because if I were you, I don't know that I'd trust me. It would be like standing behind a horse that kicked you once. I don't know that you'd stand behind him again even if you loved the horse because that horse could kick you again. However, I trust me, and if I trust me, I know I'm okay.�
So I never really got all worked up about, �Trust me. If you don't trust me, how can we be together?" I didn't deal with that; I tried to find trust for what I was doing for me, and once I knew I could trust myself, I knew I'd be okay. Then I figured Suzy will have to work that through; I couldn't do anything more than that.
SUZY: We have a couple of questions here. Before I even take them, I just want to say one thing. God bless all of you and the work you do. It makes a huge difference, and you are saving lives and you are saving families.
AUDIENCE: <Inaudible comment.>
SUZY: Oh, bless you. I will repeat that statement.
BURTON: Would you like to say that again?
SUZY: Here she is, three families.
AUDIENCE: I am a clinician and I have three cases of betrayal, and your book has made all the difference.
SUZY: Thank you so much. That's what we hope to do, and that's what I always prayed. I never sat at the word processor without praying first and asking God to help me inspire people with the possibility of hope and healing.
AUDIENCE: All the women said, �I had to find something to read, to know somebody had gone through this." However, I do have a problem.
SUZY: Okay.
AUDIENCE: In two of the cases, the women will not let go of the blame. They take it out; they worship it in order to keep themselves from getting hurt again.
SUZY: Yeah.
AUDIENCE: They are willing to go to Onsite, but my question is�they need to go now, but the problem is the betrayal workshop is in August. If you were to advise them, would you advise them to go to the couples one now? Wait for the August betrayal workshop?
SUZY: Oh, I'd say go as soon as you can go.
AUDIENCE: Okay.
SUZY: Actually, I had a thought while you were talking. I'll get back to it.
AUDIENCE: <Inaudible comment.>
SUZY: Right, were we able to be intimate again? Yes, we were. It took a while, and at first I said�and you know, of course you're thinking all these horrible thoughts about things that he was doing with the other person. Then the question we all know well: Could she have had diseases? It was difficult, but I mean, I knew physical intimacy was important to us; it just took time. Like everything else, it just takes time. Also, as I saw that Burton was genuinely remorseful, it made it easier for me to accept.
ZUGICH: I think those three conditions of safety, skills, and courage is really what it takes to come back in terms of intimacy, both emotional and physical.
KLONTZ: We're going to close. I want to remind you that they'll be here the rest of the weekend. They'll be hanging out near the Onsite booth. They were very generous with their time.
ZUGICH: Thank you. My Garden:
A relationship has a life of its own. It exists in the space between two individuals and is fed by those people. Like a garden, it is a growing thing and needs to be nurtured, needs to be tended.
What is sown is what will grow, and the quality of nurturing will reveal itself in the health of what comes forth. There will be storms, forces of nature that will visit their destruction on the garden.
Sometimes it will seem as if the entire acre needs to be re-dug, re-sown and grown anew. At these times I will remember that this ground is sacred to me. It is the earth that I have loved and tended for years that has fed me and brought me pleasure. It is my little plot, a part of my life and heart.
I will dig with my hands deep into this soil, into this relationship, and I will look for life. When the storms come, I will remember the fruit. And when the fruit comes, I will remember the storms. If my relationship is alive, it is subject to the elements.
Vaya con dios . <Applause.>
<End of tape.>
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